On the 91st episode of The Paul Cardall Podcast, Matt Hammitt returns to talk about the complexities of the music industry. His story was featured in Ep. 18 (Season 1). Paul and Matt briefly discuss leaving his Grammy-nominated Christian band, Sanctus Real. They look back on their careers and discuss the differences between a new artist starting out vs. what the two music veterans know. They talk about Matt's new song, Taylor Swift, and Save The Storks, a non-profit Matt works with that helps women facing an unplanned pregnancy.
Matt Hammitt is a singer, songwriter, author, and speaker. Matt was the lead singer for the band Sanctus Real from 1996-2016. He has been the recipient of three Dove Awards and has been nominated for two Grammy Awards, for his work with Sanctus Real. Matt has written over fifteen chart topping songs, performed by Sanctus Real and other musical artists.
Matt’s latest single, “Church Hurt,” appeals to the heart of those who have hurt within families of faith, through a lens of hope and healing. As a companion to the song, Matt has written a seven-day devotional called Life After Church Hurt.
An Ohio native, Matt now lives in Nashville with his wife, Sarah, and their four children. Passion for family is what led him to step away from Sanctus Real in 2016, to spend more time at home. Matt details this difficult transition in his book Lead Me: Finding Courage to Fight for Your Marriage, Children, and Faith. Matt holds nothing back in this unfiltered story of his life, so far.
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ABOUT PAUL
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Transcript
Announcer
Welcome to the Paul Cardall podcast. Forbes magazine calls him one of the most listened to recording artists of our time with his podcast, Paul wants to shed light on unique celebrities and influencers who use their gifts to make the world a better place. For more information, visit www.paulcardall. Dot com.
Song
Cause you tell. Me. Show me how to broken.
Paul
Everyone, welcome to the Paul Cardall podcast and that is me and I'm here with my good friend Matt Hammitt, who was on a previous episode. We talked about how we've known each other. For a pretty long time.
Matt
Yeah, yeah. Not even longer now coming up. 15 years. Man, that is so crazy.
Paul
Because so go back to that podcast. We talked about Matt's. Book lead me. Which I want to follow up on. And just his career as a musician. That's still going. But he took a break. From touring and actually exited out. Of Saint to thrill. And we talked to. Jake, right? Yeah, through it was in in the group.
Matt
Yeah. At the time when I left.
Paul
Because you guys both decided family over banned.
Matt
Yeah, we both had that just. Pivotal point in our lives where we just knew like then this thing is. Again, it's a little bit of a cliche, but it's that thing of, you know, am I running this or is it running me? It definitely felt like it was running me or me and Jake are many, but a bunch of us in the band, we all felt like it was. Kind of running. Us at that point. Yeah, I can't speak necessarily for Mark and Chris. We're still doing it and doing it so well, still my brothers. I'm really proud of them because they've been able. To take. They were able to do what they I think feared they couldn't, which was reinvent and figure out how to be successful in a new season of doing differently. Yeah. And they've done that and you. Know they've they've. What they've really done, and I think I'm. Correct in saying this. They've really learned. How to build a successful streaming business? Which wasn't really. Something we could have done if I. Would have stayed in the band because.
Paul
That was relatively new, though.
Matt
It was brand new, yeah.
Paul
Treatment was brand new. Yeah, for. And I didn't know a. Lot of my audience still had CD's. Yep, so. And good for you. Yeah. CD's, cassettes, but the streaming. I mean from from a historical standpoint, you were just so it was a difficult transition.
Matt
It was right there. We were right in the middle. That really hard transition from CD's where CD sales dropped off halfway because streaming the record business was in disarray and no one knew how the streaming thing was going to go. You couldn't make a lot of money off streaming at that time because I hadn't switched over and we didn't know our masters. We were still the label because I exited the band. As hard as it was at the time, I know for that they never would have figured out how to restructure as a new entity owning their own masters to build a steering business off of that which what they've done now success very successfully. And so I'm I'm really proud of them for that, you know, because the the touring industry for. You know, bands that aren't necessarily that top a level arena tier, it's still very difficult to make a living in Christian music off that mid level tour and yeah, yeah.
Paul
Cause a lot. A lot of genres. A lot of genres you either. Fit into the pocket.
Matt
Yeah, of the.
Paul
System that currently exists. That's why they say you know and as a. Person in the music industry, I tend to take it a little further, give a little pretty story. Yeah, to it. But but the year they always say, OK, this is their freshman album, then they're sophomore album. You know and and for example, in the country music business, because I sold my catalog to a country, the majority of them do country music. Only a handful of people in Nashville. The labels all know each other. The A&R people all know. Each other. The people at Spotify and Apple that program, music, they all know each other. So you're coming from an outside box into it, and Christian music is even tighter. Because you rely on. If you're pop culture Christian, yeah, I would say pop. Culture for sure, yeah. Yeah, you're on the radio. But there's what, 2 radio stations.
Matt
There are only a couple of big. Conglomerates that that kind of. Have the biggest reach. Yeah. Who are the K? Love the fish, I believe still is a big hitter in terms of reach and audience. And so. But Caleb really is an air one which are owned by EMF Broadcasting. Are really the ones that have the weight in the industry and and. It can just be very hard to get your song on the radio unless you have partnership with the label. This partnership with the networks, it's not impossible, but it's difficult. Yeah, so.
Paul
You know that. Yeah, I was having meetings with Anthem after I sold my catalog. I learned. Did you know that it takes $1,000,000 to break an artist?
Matt
I did not. No. I mean I would have, I think I could have figured probably be something like that, but. That's insane. That it still actually.
Paul
Is that much money you have to go on this campaign where you go and you meet the radio people. Yeah. You. It's called on the site before you actually tour. You go and you meet all. The disc jockeys? Yep. And back. Back in the 70s, there's what's called Paola.
Matt
Totally. Yeah. But it's it's it's illegal now it's.
Paul
Like the pharmaceutical companies, that would, basically, hey, don't play golf with me. And and yeah, tell me about your Medtronic pacemaker.
Matt
It's it's it's a. Different kind of Palin.
Paul
Yeah, you know? Oh, yeah, sure. Sure. I'll grab, I'll grab an order of 1000 for Vandy's children.
Matt
Yeah, it's hospital. Yeah.
Paul
But it's it's the same type of thing, and Congress had to create this law. Corrupt Congress, they had to create a law so that you can't go to a disc jockey. And pay him. Payola to play your music. Yeah. And that was the desperation back then is I need them to pay because as a record label, I've invested so much money into this artist that I don't get Airplay. I'm out of a job.
Matt
Yeah. And you know, to be honest with you, all the years that we were with the label. You know, we had we had a newbie kind of publishing deal and and record deal. Where we weren't on necessarily the the winning side of the royalties, OK, in the early days. But I also is as angry as I could people get about that and there was certainly there was a time when they actually. Came to us. And said, hey, you guys paid your dues. We're going to. Give you a better deal, which was. Unbelievable they did.
Paul
That so Christian, thoughtful.
Matt
If it was very, it was very, very cool. The very cool they.
Paul
Thank you. Thank you.
Matt
Did that, yeah. They gave us some of our publishing. Back but at the. Time we didn't understand the power of owning a master recording. You know and and the difference between owning songwriting royalties and owning the actual recording, which is a much greater payoff. However, at the time, we didn't have the money to invest in those records. Back then, it still costs 60 to a. $100,000 to make a basic record.
Paul
To make a music video.
Matt
Make or to make a music video. You know we we're paying $75,000 on the. Low end to. Making this video in the Christian market. We didn't have that kind of money, so I can understand the label we added in this agreement and the labels putting up hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars only millions of dollars to promote us and our brand. At the time, there was no merchandise deals like the 360 deals they do now where the. Label can actually. Get from merchandise and touring we owned. All of our merchandising tour and they didn't get to touch any of that. Wow. And so I look at it and I go, yes, could I have complained about the fact that our deal didn't? Seem that great. I could have, but I also understood the benefit we reaped from the marketing dollars they put into us as a band. And now that I'm on my own as an independent artist. I'm facing it right now this week, this new song coming out on Friday. I really believe in it, however. What is it? Worth for me to even put in or put behind this? You know, it's like I need to make music to my soul. It's my gift. Yeah. At this point. Funny enough, it's like still speaking events, singing events are kind of my primary. The way that I earn money for my family. I still love making music. That's my primary gifting I've seen.
Paul
You can't. You you don't think you could ever quit? You quit the band, but can you quit music?
Matt
Yeah, no, like, I quit the band so that I could not have to be on the road all the time with my family. There's no way that I could ever quit music, cause it's just it's it's who I am. Yeah, but the dilemma now is going. What do I invest in getting my music out there so I can make it? I can get creative fulfillment knowing I benefit from making it, and then the people who follow me can benefit from listening, but on a broader scale I don't have the OR doesn't make sense for me on a business model. If you're looking at the numbers right to be dumping that money into it. So you can imagine at this point I'm going well, man, maybe it was better working with the label because I am not necessarily willing to make the investment that it takes the risk to the taking risk before and I've lost out pretty big on my own music. And so then I go, OK.
Paul
The risk you don't want.
Matt
Like like. What's? Yeah, what's the method? How do I create? And that's. This is where I think what's really cool. And again, I know this isn't just a music podcast, so we're talking about a lot. Of music in.
Paul
It's fine, it's fine.
Matt
This period, but this is something that. I think is really interesting about the current. Music industry for independent artists. Now that things have actually down to a point where if you learn how to promote your music. On an independent. Level and you own your own recordings. There is a significant opportunity for income. Now that that's all right, it's all popping like, yeah. So now what we're seeing is producers and promoters and teams of people in the music industry coming together and being willing to work and risk it together on owning the master records.
Paul
It's true. It's kind of like.
Matt
A new model? Yeah. So if you, if we win, we all win together. Yeah. I don't just pay some promoter $20,000 and with no promise that my song isn't going to get playlisted or played on the radio. And just because that's what's happening a lot of times. So I have to pay this guy because he's the gatekeeper. Well, you don't get any results and now you're out 20,000.
Paul
Do you know it?
Matt
Dollars and it's like, what did I do that for? I just. Lost all this money, right? But if you say, hey, I'll give you X percentage of this recording and perpetuity and the harder they work, the more money they make. And then it's win. Win for everybody. And if they win big, we. All win big, so if you're.
Paul
If you're a brand new artist. You're a brand new artist and you're thinking like. But don't you remember? Well, here's the thing.
Matt
Your brand new arts have no way to get. These people to work on.
Paul
Them that there's all that from where? At from where, from where we are now. I mean, your band was Grammy nominated. I've had some some great success. And so we look at these new artists that are coming in and we know how difficult it is. Right. Do you remember? It's that it's that dream. Ohh yeah, that that fogs all reality. Yep. You know? Yep. And and I always take that a little further. Like you try to teach your kids who know everything.
Matt
Right man.
Paul
When we're getting to the point now where we? Don't know as much.
Matt
So yeah.
Paul
So what we knew? In the formula and the constant evolving music industry. To to what somebody knew knew, he's starting to to understand. But then again, they understand technology way. More than us.
Matt
Yep. Yep. That's yeah, yeah. Yes. For sure. Yeah. They're I'm asking them sometimes. How how to do some things, you know where I'm like. OK, guys, I can't navigate this.
Paul
Are your kids smarter on the?
Matt
And so it's definitely I've noticed that. And I've been talking to the younger guys who understand algorithms and playlisting and, you know, all the the marketing stuff and how to get things moving on Spotify and in socials. And I'm just going, I'm I have these conversations and my brain is just. Exploding my brains just like are imploding. I don't know which I'm like. I have no idea. Because you know, I'm like, we grew up and everything was organic or simple marketing through distribute. Through the channels that existed that the label did the marketing, the label had the team and you got to be the artist and make and make the music and be with people and perform. And you guys are just use your gift and now it's like if I don't wear 50 different hats and like, hey, I'm a marketing guy. Hey, I'm the engineer. Hey, I'm the mix engineer. Hey, I'm the performer. I'm the artist. Hey, I'm the the the door guy. You know, it's like whatever it is. It's like if if you don't learn how to do that now, then it's very difficult to be just one thing. Which is just.
Paul
The creative you and I took completely different. Because a band? Yep. Christian pop culture? Yep. And Christian music, I mean, it's making billions of dollars. It's absolutely a lot of.
Matt
Money. Tons of money, especially worship and trying.
Paul
Tap into that and and Christian music doesn't just. Make money from. Streaming and doing shows. Churches are actually singing the modern, you know, music, which is a lot of Christian churches still believe in dead composers. Yeah. So hey, only seeing dead composers. We're current. Yeah. At the time those churches. And so, yeah, it's just fascinating because in my world, it wasn't about knowing technology and knowing, you know, where I needed to. Be for a. Tour, knowing that the record label is marketing. I had no choice but to do. All of that on my own. I had a I mean, I. Had a label. For, you know, Virgin Records for a couple of years. Then I started my own because I was in a lane. That nobody is going to play your music. Radio. Yep. And for me, I I studied the band rush. They've only had one song break the top 20 and it's called Working Man. Yeah, but they'll sell out arenas. Every guy with testosterone knows who they are. And not everybody likes their music. So I would study them because from the beginning it was like, well, we're.
Matt
No way. Oh yeah.
Paul
Not going to get on the radio. And we're just going to. So what they tried to do is they read. Everything they could about the actual music business. Geddy Lee, the lead singer. And I'm reading this biography. It's called my ****** life. Yeah, my that's what it. He doesn't swear. He just says Utah. You'll appreciate this. It's just my F in life could have been my fetching life, my flipping life, but because he's. It's an amazing biography, but the bottom line is. He learned how to do contracts.
Matt
No way.
Paul
Because when money is tight. And you're trying to make a living. You have to figure out, OK, what can I? What can I learn? And what do I have to pay for? Yep. And that's what younger kids. Getting into this are starting to recognize, you know, you're you're some Boeing. Around and he performs with you. You've got, you know, Bowen's heart. If you want to follow that on Instagram. But he'll sing with you. And is he? Is he? Does he love doing that? Does he like taking a break from it? Does. He get nervous.
Matt
He used to get nervous, so about a year ago we went through season where he just was getting so nervous where I actually said, hey, hey. Like time to take a break.
Paul
If you tell them that's hormones.
Matt
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Take a break and a few months back, he said. Dad, I think I'd like to come back out with you. So he came back out and sang last fall again. It was so great. But then around the the turn of the year, New Year.
Paul
Though coming becoming a.
Matt
We started noticing that, you know, let's just say bones range started getting deeper as a 13 year old, so. The songs that he had written. We went out to a show in Idaho to perform and he realized there that he could no longer hit the most important note in the song. And so we we had to adjust the key ever since you.
Paul
Remember that Brady Bunch episode are you Brady?
Matt
Bunch, you know I did. I have watched the Brady Bunch, but I was never like a die hard.
Paul
Family ties. Are growing with your buddy Kirk, but like on on Brady Bunch?
Matt
Yeah, yeah. Pains. Yeah, might occur here.
Paul
Who was it? The one in the middle? They were doing the same thing. Thing or a TV show, a commercial and they were singing as a family. Yeah. And he was going through the stage. So they were doing whatever. I I'm not a good singer. Yeah, but they created a part specifically for him as a way of humor arising. Yeah, the song and it it, you know, it. It went over well. Ohh it's funny but. I think of, you know, I my daughter Eden, who just released her third single. This is the first one where she did everything. On around because I said I'm not paying for. Another single you need to figure it out. So she's got all the grip.
Matt
What do you mean the $1,000,000 you guys made on the 1st? Couple didn't didn't fund.
Paul
The 5th no couple. She got a. Couple thousand streams but yeah.
Matt
Yeah, yeah, you have.
Paul
400.
Matt
Couple thousand strands. What does that equal?
Paul
These days, like $32, she got a paper out check. I think yeah, we.
Matt
There we go.
Paul
We put it on once you hit. 100 yeah, it'll flow. Alright, that's the idea. You know, I'm. A dad. I understand the music business, so I'm kind of. You want to do everything. For it, but you're trying to teach. Her to fish. Yeah. So that she can figure it all out. But she's like. I don't know how to do this because I'm all you got. The equipment. Yeah. You have a share 57 you have. Which is listener. That's a great microphone that's affordable. To have logic, which is what we use to edit music producers, use. Engineers use Pro Tools. Producers and musicians use logic. I ran into Greg Cooper, our mutual friend.
Matt
Love Craig Greg Cooper.
Paul
And Craig, son Joshua. Cooper was applying for NYU. And Craig had told me that, you know, he's been producing people. Out of his bedroom. So this is the shift in the music industry. You and I went into million dollar recording studio. Yeah, OK. We spent a lot of money we had. To come up with our budgets. To make our. Like you know, when I did piano in full. Orchestra. You don't even want to know what that cost, but it was expensive. And I had to sell a lot of CD's. Just to break even and it took a couple of years, yeah. So people think you're flowing in revenue because you're in the? But the reality is we're working just as hard as everybody else. Yep, our cubicle is our space where we create. So we're no longer in these massive studios. Some of us are. I did. I did a couple recent records but. Joshua's. Yeah, I'll. I'll work with Eden. So Eden did. All the vocals. In her bedroom. Yeah, it's awesome. Like she used the bathroom as a little bit of reverb action. Yeah, so she did everything she and sent the piano to him and then he threw the computer through logic. Added percussion added module effects. And they they pulled off. You know the song is called Good to you. Ask Alexa to play good to you by. And like. What a producer. And this is just a kid in high school. OK, but he got, you know, accepted into NYU's Clive Davis. In fact, they they had a video go viral when he got accepted, it was on the Today show. It was like.
Matt
It was awesome things she sat up everywhere.
Paul
Things just happened to Craig Cooper, you know.
Matt
Yeah, Craig, Craig got the saver.
Paul
And if you don't know Craig is Hunter Walker Hayes. Wrote a song about him called Craig. So if you want to know who Craig is, go listen to that song. We're giving him a list of music. To to listen to today, yes we are. Yes. So what's fascinating, they. Did it in their bedrooms. I think it cost 100 bucks. She gave them a. 100 bucks. That's great. Cooper, you're underestimating your value. But we do like that 100. Bucks, but you. Know the most producer you're going to a. Yeah. Now it's getting legit songs and you know that's a. Legit song, but yeah. It's it costs anywhere now from 3 to 20 grand. Yep. To get a producer, but now they're they're they're doing everything in the. House. Yeah, exactly you. Used to go into a studio, you write you do you know what you see glorified on like VH1 or MTV, back when they had. Music on the channels. In these documentaries you're seeing the. Yeah, you know.
Matt
Like. Yeah, it's insane, man. Just what things cost and to do to do and that's. I was even talking to promotions guy about running some playlisting on Spotify and all that and. Just again, I'm looking at the cost going like that's gonna cost me like way more than it costs me to even record this song, you know, with a good producer, I'm like.
Paul
Yeah, because now we have to. There's what's called curators. Yep. So Spotify has people that basically create playlists that are endorsed by Spotify. And the goal is not to get on the list but the. Goal is to get on the list, yeah. Because then your music is streamed, you know, like I was fortunate to get on the Enya Enya.
Announcer
Oh wow.
Paul
Or the Yanni list. Yeah, you. And I was thinking if I got on. The Yanni list.
Matt
Give me on the onion, you know.
Paul
Like I'd need to get some Rogaine. My hair would grow out, you know? But but but? You have to do that through companies now. You have to. Hire a playlist company and there's several like streaming promotions. They're owned by symphonic. Yeah. So you have your music distributed by symphonic, but they also have their play listers. So you start to see how these conglomerates. Start to own each other and they all kind of know each other and this is the independent world. And then you have, like Grover, Grover sends your music to. You know. It's a it's $2.00 per curator. Yeah. You're spending $2.00 for this company to send it to somebody you're not even sure. Is going to like it. But they do have to. Give their. Thoughts. Yeah, they do have to.
Matt
Give their thoughts and they're going to send it to thousands. OK.
Paul
So they've dialed in. They've dialed in. OK, Eden's new song. Good to you. It's it's dream pop. Yeah, she she's a Green Day. Paramore fan. Yeah, you know, and freaks out every time. The fact that you know the. The guitar player and helped him learn guitar but Paramore but this song because Joshua Cooper's. More of a pop guy. They made it dream Pop, which is like alternative. Take a really slow. Nirvana Song or Avril Lavigne? And that's kind of. But because of that. Now she's got this different vibe, so it's like when you fill out the document of what the playlister needs to know and you have to keep it within a paragraph. Yeah. What does she sound like? Well, dream pop, comma, pop, pop, pop. Comma alternative. So then they pull in, the curators who have listed those genres. Yeah. And then you're. You you get. For two bucks to get their information now, she's been able to get and I've been able to get like hundreds of playlists, but these playlists have anywhere from 500 to 30,000 listeners. And they are two to nine hours long. Yeah. Wow. It helps, but you have to ask yourself, is the $2.00 that you're spending on a curator? You're gonna earn that back from the playlist. See, this is what people that have been in the music business long enough to think about when you're young.
Matt
You have a dream. You just want to be heard. You just want to get it out there. What does it cost? OK, we'll. Raise the money. Well, hey.
Paul
Yeah, we'll just figure it out. It'll just happen because. Yeah. Oh, my. Gosh, we're so good. We love to share our music and. And that's that's the beauty of. Yeah, he was Richard Paul Evans, who wrote the Christmas box. Who was my mentor, did a $10 million deal with Simon and Schuster for his. First book, the Christmas books. Volume on New York Times bestseller, and he made it happen. It was number. Himself because he treated it like. A cause this was something important, yeah. For parents that lost children. It was he tried A cause to it, but he always said. Had I known. The challenges and the path you would have taken to get to that point. I'm not sure I would have done it. Wow. Like it's that difficult. He mortgaged his house in the hopes that People magazine would run the article. Ohh man, that they had done together. He wasn't sure. He went on the. He was about to go on the Today show. This is this is what's funny about America. He was about to go on the Today show and. They came in, they ate to the green. Room. And they said Richard. We're going to have to hold you. Because somebody. Has Elvis's toenail. One of the clippings good. So, you know, nobody knows Richard Paul Evans, but they know Elvis and the fact that he had clipped his toenails. You know which everybody does, but the fact Can you imagine if Taylor Swift had a toenail? Man, the hundred 155 million people that followers.
Matt
She shouldn't be selling her tone. I mean, really, she be selling her toenails.
Paul
You know and. Then you find out it's Travis. Kelsey's because.
Matt
Yeah, yeah, that's that big time. It's a.
Paul
With a little bit of Astroturf in it.
Matt
Worth even more.
Paul
Yeah, Taylor Swift. My last part my my previous podcast. Go back. We talked about Taylor Swift. We talked about. The amazing element of how she's created her team is created. Something that has surpassed Frank Sinatra.
Matt
Ohh it's unreal.
Paul
And we tried to figure out, so let. Me ask you? Why do you think her music not her? Why do you think her music is? With nine year old girls. Up to their mother? Yeah, 4550 and maybe. Some men in. There, yeah.
Matt
I think it's it's it's about belonging and worth personally. OK. I think that when you listen to Taylor Swift's catalog of music, you hear all of the longings and heart cries. I think of of of. People in the throes of seasons of relationships and life, yeah, who are longing to belong, who are longing to be in love. We're longing to be loved. I think she's a master at not only. Well, let me put it this way. You you see Instagram and all these people who do all these inspirational quotes, right? Yeah, that just touch so deeply. A lot of those ones that go around that get hundreds of thousands of likes and views are the ones that talk deeply about love and relationships. And, you know, it's it's it's really boils down to like this self help, right? Someone reads this. Quote and they go ohh I feel that so deeply because it resonates. Maybe not exactly resonates with my situation, but it relates to my situation or feeling that I'm having right now, right. And I do think that she's masterful not only at working in the. Working and relational language that that. Hits people so deeply from the wounds or joys that they've had in love, yeah. Relationship. But I also think that that just the metaphors, but it's like just how raw and literal she can be about it as well. But I think she's just constantly hitting that nerve, the poetic nerve for love and the literal nerve of love over and over and over again, probably because she's. Constantly in the throes of relational. She's baggage. She's very.
Paul
Like gonna.
Matt
Listen, I'm it's almost like I think that's what has her being constantly in the state.
Paul
But but. But I'm a cynic, but I think, yeah, I'm a cynic as a creative. Yeah, and many of you do not know that. But I am a cynic. So I tend to go. Taylor Swift's marketing. What is the the pitch? What is the ***** that keeps her in front? She's so good at playing the victim.
Matt
Oh, I see. I see that.
Paul
My heart has been broken, yeah. Everyone's heart has been broken and everybody wants a song that resonates with that pain. So you.
Matt
That's right.
Paul
It was Michael J Fox that said her music's amazing, but I would not let my son date her. Yeah, because I don't want a song. About her, you know, and Travis Kelsey, if he plays the cards right? Yeah. Everyone's gonna love it. But the minute. He goes up to her the way he went up to Andy Reid. Yeah. And there's a picture of it. This is the risk he is taking because everything she touches turns to gold, which is why we're talking about her. So the algorithm. I'm kidding. Yeah, I'm kidding. But she's a fascinating case, and she's the extreme of. What's what's possible? In the music industry, yeah, she can pull all. Her stuff off for a week. So her. Song premieres #1 because at this stage in her career, she's competing with herself. Yeah, just like you're competing with Sanctus Real. Yeah. Anytime you put something new out, you're competing with lead me. Yeah, I'm competing with the hymns that you guys love to listen to. I appreciate it, but as artists. I mean. How do we get people to listen to our new songs, you know?
Matt
I don't know. I wish I knew if I knew. I would have. A huge amount of followers on Spotify right now.
Paul
I mean, Sting has to sing Roxanne.
Matt
Yeah, yeah.
Paul
But he wants to play his little. Well, maybe it makes sense because he likes to play Gaelic guitars. Yeah, ships sailing away. True. And that's fine. That's where he's at. And Taylor was good. Taylor's good at shifting. What she did, she's always shifting in her music.
Matt
Like she's constantly evolving in her style, production and vocal delivery, melodic expiration. I mean, yeah, I I I do think she she is a a wild talent, you know and I and I. I I your songs are are earworms, you know she's got the greatest pop writers who write the greatest hooks of of of you know our age constantly riding her with her along with her. And I think she's a great writer. Yeah. One of those comes along and and and every how many years, I don't know.
Paul
But Beatles Frank Taylor.
Matt
She's definitely one in Brazilians, yeah.
Paul
I we studied The Beatles in high school knowing. Edge music program. So I I imagine. They're actually studying the swift swifty.
Matt
I'm sure. I thought I did hear there was actually a college. Course now that's like. Based on Taylor's career, wow. Yeah.
Paul
Is that Elon Musk?
Matt
I heard.
Paul
Trump you to win today or something.
Matt
But it did actually hear that a while. Back there was a headline about that.
Paul
It it is interesting though, when the Super Bowl happened. You know. The number of people that went online to. Like if we're bashing Taylor. You know. Geez, Ozzy Osbourne's a St. anyways, I was going to ask you, I'd like to ask. What music you're listening to? So #1, who's your favorite? And I. You're biased cause you know. A lot of these guys. But who do you love right now in Christian music? And secondly, what were you listening to on your way here to the pod? Ohh man. Well.
Matt
So gosh, it's so this is so. Much it's great though.
Paul
And he knows all these guys. So the problem is, whoever. You don't worry, they're not listening. So they're listening to to blurry creatures.
Matt
Yeah, yeah. You know, it's interesting, is there? There has been one artist that has stood out to me. Because of her authenticity, yet her ability to fit into the worship movement, which is Abby Gamboa, Abby. Yeah, she came out of a a movement called Upper Room in Texas. I think it's. Well, maybe it's not Texas. Wait, upper room. How do you? Spell ABY and then GA MB OAI. Think Abby Gamboa Abby Gamboa. She has a. Called. I think it's moon. Or pure. Horrible, horrible record names. But she's got this out her solo album. It's the lyric and melody for me on. That one that caught. Me. It's beautiful. The music is beautiful. It's really piano based. And you know the the the tracks are built up a little bit, but. She digs deep into. Keep growing up facing the difficulties of life keeping a childhood or the childlike heart keeping a posture of gratitude towards God. She is pretty young, I would say late, late 20s, early 30s. No. But but she's she hasn't. She hasn't been through a dream. Yeah.
Paul
So she doesn't know the test. You got it.
Matt
She's very perceptive though. In terms of that posture and then the wrestle of. How do I stay like a child but be? Tough in this. Life and a lot of her lyrics really speak to me in that way. So she stood out to me in terms of someone who's left of center, but she's found a way to get a ton of followers, a ton of support have.
Paul
You worked with her, no?
Matt
I didn't met her. For, but she's fantastic. My daughter, my daughter would list was listening to up a room. Then I got on Spotify. I saw her solo stuff, OK and.
Paul
How do you how do? You. How did you find? Yeah, just kind of great discovering music through.
Matt
Ohh man yeah.
Paul
Incredible. When our kids like. Yeah, tell you.
Matt
About somebody? Yeah, exactly.
Paul
Because you thought you thought you had told them. Yeah. About what? What are the best groups? And then all.
Matt
OK.
Paul
Of a sudden they just need to like, yeah. And and. Like I didn't know who Conan Gray was.
Matt
Ohh yeah see I know, I know.
Paul
Who he is. But I know like. Billy eilish? Yeah, she's. Very famous. I've been to the Grammys. Been near her. That's how I learned about her. Yeah, through my.
Matt
Daughter. Yeah. And then the, like, the latest artist, I kind of learned through the algorithms was Patrick drone, who's like, you know, he's got this really cool kind of dark pop sound. But even though it's, like kind of major, it's like still like. The the The HIS production style still has this kind of dark. NIST over it. That's like, I don't mean dark, like from emotional spiritual.
Paul
Yeah, but like.
Matt
It's kind of rough. I don't know. It's it's gritty in a way, but still pop. And then he he's a sick guitar player. Like he plays almost like John Mayer. And so, you know, recently discovered him. But man, the record for me musically last year was Teddy swims.
Paul
John mayers.
Matt
Yeah, I've tried everything, but therapy part one. Dude, that to me was. Thank you.
Paul
Do you listen to the guys we hang?
Matt
Out with that dude. That that guy Teddy swims, man. It's like last year was my man. That record came out last fall. Was the no, no, no, no. I don't recommend this. I mean as as as a face journey speak to pop record, but well, you're so we're still on. You said. What am I listening to? And then what? And Christian Christian. For sure. Abby Gambo right now. But. But on the on just the music.
Paul
That is the topic. So this is. Not part of you.
Matt
You just, you know what I've been listening to Teddy swims. Then there's this artist. Gosh, what else have I just been through? Steven Wilson junior, which Bart Miller from MercyMe told me about. Unbelievable country folk country kind of songwriter. Unreal his.
Paul
Are we OK? Lights. Got farts? Got good. He's got.
Matt
Great taste. His lyrics are and. Music is fantastic. He's got the song trying. To think of the full title of. But it's like something 1994. Again, I'm horrible with song titles, but I'm so I've listened to it 1000 times, but it's all about growing up in the 90s. It's it's just like gets you, man. It's so you thought looking so good.
Paul
I grew up in the 80s. And he's a native. That's why he didn't know. The Brady bunch? Yeah, but you were. Part of Oasis. Yeah, 182 and Yep. All the bands see I was on. A Mormon mission.
Matt
Yes, that's true.
Paul
And we could not listen to anything but the Tabernacle choir. Well, even though my companion. All the Garth Brooks. Underneath the bed well. He asked me, he said, what kind of missionary do you want to be? I said, well, I want to be a good missionary. I want to keep. Their roles so. He put all his country music under the bed. Years later I found out he had it and I said, well, why didn't we listen to it? He goes well, you wanted. I asked you what you wanted to do. I said, you mean I could have got a blockbuster. Video card and we and on the days we're supposed to be teaching people Mormonism, we.
Matt
That's too good. Could have been watching die hard. Yeah. And that's so funny. Well, dude, on the way here, it looks like I answer that question all the way here. And for the basketball, they've been listening to the YouTube sphere live in Las Vegas. Set list because I'm preparing to go see that show this weekend with my buddy Seth Mosley.
Paul
All right, YouTube reveal if you're on YouTube. So I'm showing off that. I already went Yep. But I'm telling you that you're going to. You're never going to want to play. A gig again, because you're going to. You got to be in the future. Oh, the simplicity of what that show is. I don't know how to describe it. It's an out of body. It's worth the money. That's the one concert ticket. It's expensive. It's actually worth the money. I mean constantly on TikTok. I'm seeing the old video of Kurt Cobain's lead singer. And he's told that Madonna is charging $50. A ticket, he goes. $50. Who does she think she is her like it's. Who does she think she is? Turning $50. I ain't going to Madonna for 50 and and because tickets back then were reasonable. You know. Oh. Go to all these concerts in the 80s and 90s and it was like 40 bucks, 20 bucks. You got lawn seating and. You could you know. You know, you got to nowadays. I don't know. If you can afford to go to.
Matt
Shows. Yeah, it's insane. I very, very, very rarely. Go to shows. And if I'm really honest, I got invited to go to you too, from somebody. Who had a ticket?
Paul
And the guy that invited. Him Seth mostly was on. This podcast. Ohh yeah do. You wanna go back and listen to Seth? He's a Grammy. Winning producer. Yeah, just worked. With Tim McGraw, he's having a tough life. You know his. Full circle. Company. He's one of those guys that's totally in the loop. He's he's because he's so talented and can articulate.
Matt
And not like town, but it's. Work ethic is out of this. The world.
Paul
And he's he desires more than anything to mentor. Yeah, people into the.
Matt
Out of this world. Market. Yeah, he's he's fantastic being and a good.
Paul
Friend, Oh my gosh dude, we could keep talking forever. Last thing I want to talk about is. One of the things that you're advocating, you know, you got your song coming out. By the time they listen, the song is out.
Matt
What's it called? Yes, it's called packed up. My love and. It's it's done, my love. Yeah, it's, it's up. So yeah.
Paul
Did you put Sarah in a suitcase? My wife, would you backed up your love?
Matt
I so I wrote, we wrote. I wrote this song that friend Benji pack. All right. Now, Benji Pack, when I say Benji pack.
Paul
Are you taking her, miss?
Matt
Then you back as a designer who I love, who worked on, say loud record our first Sparrow and I don't know why that even came out of my mouth so.
Song
OK.
Matt
I just followed him on Instagram and I found him again.
Paul
I forgot his name.
Matt
Benji Coward, coward. Benji coward. That's what. And his brother is Jeremy, cower, the famous photographer and and and Benjy's an incredible songwriter. OK. Our daughter returning 13. This is when I was actually in a publishing deal with Seth Mosley back years ago. Our daughter turned 13. Five years ago, we wrote the songs absolutely beautiful. Both of us were just wrecked emotionally over writing the song. But it didn't really fit the style of music I. Was recording at that time. And the record the record I was. Working on alternative. It's really three. It's almost like it's almost like a hymn. It's like 3 verses and then, you know, yeah, it's almost like 3 verses. And then like this for friends. Really beautiful. OK. And and so.
Paul
Of course.
Matt
It's not. There's no really. Core it's no.
Paul
It's just like nearer my God to thee.
Matt
Yeah, it's it's, it's the structure really does sound like a religious song or a church song. And so we originally called him for my kids, but him is sunk to God. So it's kind of weird, like, saying him, when you're singing something that's not too God and you know, so like, there was a little bit of weirdness there. And and there is a I packed up my love for you here. And this song is the the main. Mine alright, may not. I can't always travel the roads. You'll be on. So I packed up my love for you here in this song is the.
Paul
This is this is this is what I tell people every podcast you have to invest.
Matt
In yeah, yeah.
Paul
Memories. You can't people go out of town. And they buy all kinds of chat.
Matt
Spies. Yeah, and they bring it home.
Paul
And then it all ends up in a garage sale. And you're like, why don't have money to do this? And it's is that kind of what you're saying is like you gotta create moments?
Matt
Well, yeah, you know it's, it's gone. Actually the the music, the the lyric videos coming out and there's all these beautiful memories of me. And I mean, of course, the past 18 years. And, you know, I knew I needed to record the song we wanted to put it out at 13. It didn't work, and it wasn't the time. But I knew when she turned 18 years old, I put this song out. So yeah, it's it's it's. It's basically like what do we want to say? What do we want to say to our daughters and what do we want to send them with off, off with in life? Is they growing to young women and. And so that's really the heart of the song and.
Paul
Five years later. You know. Ohh geez, that's.
Matt
Hope that people latch on to it. Obviously it's dearly personal for me and for Benji and.
Paul
We'll put a link. The link is in the notes. Yeah, for this this new song. But your daughters, she's leading worship at conduit.
Matt
Yeah. So she leads worship sometimes on Sunday mornings, they give her the opportunity, which has been amazing. She leads also for youth, young adults and for children on a regular basis. Yeah. So she's constantly over there. Serving and singing and has a beautiful, very sincere. And unique voice and out of their out of.
Paul
Does she want or? Does she want to be an artist?
Matt
She I don't think has a desire to be an artist, but she has a desire to do music. So I think the path for her may be to worship. Yeah. Wow.
Paul
That's a gift because worship.
Matt
She probably sees the toll takes on dad trying to throw my.
Paul
Music. But she'd rather just do it all for Jesus.
Matt
Yeah, yeah. She's just more pure.
Paul
Technically you're doing. All for Jesus because you're paying. The Bills and you're trying.
Matt
I would like to think. So but I wanted the.
Paul
Last thing I know, this is going is. Save the storks. Yes, we've never, really. About to save the storks, but you're big on this and you you go speak all over the the world. Yeah. About this issue? Yeah. Dealing with Planned Parenthood and abortion. Yeah. What's their main?
Matt
Purpose behind save? Yeah. So save the store. I know that's kind of a crazy name, right? It's but you. Know it's it's it's, it's.
Paul
I need to get I. Need to get her on the podcast?
Matt
Yeah, it's the it's, it's the play obviously on the store, it's delivering babies. You know they have these mobile medical, they have 100 mobile medical units on the road that offer live. Farming health care for women. Free free ultrasound, free STD testing, different clinical services they offer at no cost whatsoever, and ultimately they're they're helping women understand that if they have the desire to choose life for their baby, that something will be there for them, not just to walk through them making that decision but to support them.
Paul
The whole way.
Matt
And so they partner with these pregnancy centers or life affirming Women's Health. To provide mom with everything she needs for emotional financial support and and practical support throughout the pregnancy, and even after the pregnancy. So it's it's a a fantastic work. Part of the reason I love working with save the stores. Because they're on the ground, just meeting the needs of people, they're not out picketing, they're not out yelling. They're just saying, hey. We're looking at the data. The data says that a majority of women who choose abortion believed it was the only option that they had and didn't feel that anyone would have supported their. Decision for life. Otherwise they would have wanted that child and the number one voice they actually wanted here. Which is funny because it will say, well, the data should have nothing to do. Is it you know, it's like it's my body. My choice. That's the big push. Funny enough, when you actually survey women who've had abortions, they said the one voice they always wanted to hear was the voice of the father. Saying I will do this with you, that's what. Got them into. That's what they wanted. Yeah. So you know what? People can can rail all they want on, you know. All the the emotional sides of the political spectrum. But the fact is the data. Troops there are a lot of women who just want to be supported to choose life. There will always be women who choose abortion. And you know what? The thing I love about storks is they still love those women. They still offer them support if they come back and say, hey, I have trauma, I need heal from this, I'll still walk them through and do post book constantly and and and. Deal. But the big conversation, I love that saved the stores is having and I love they frame it this way because this is the truth of it is that they want to provide there's equal access right to everything equity and there's a big push for equal equal rights, equal access to different kinds of care. But their conversation that they want to have. Is who's providing equal access to motherhood? Wow for women who desire it. Or are you going to withhold that choice if you say your pro-choice?
Paul
Because most of these women have no support.
Matt
Yeah, most of them are not supported by the family or their doctors or it's such. A I mean, let's just be honest too. Like the abortion industry is a high dollar industry and billions and billions of dollars. And so, you know, you can talk to anybody who manages a clinic. Yeah, they they make their money off of abortion. They will actually want to provide that.
Paul
It's it's. It's a big business. Big business they don't need.
Matt
Service so that they get the. Paycheck. It's it's it's a hard. And it's like that in a lot of health industry we know that. So you know it's it's tough when you get in the way of somebody's business, but the truth is that say this starts wants to show these women that they're supported if in fact they want to choose less, which how can anybody argue with that? That's what. I want to. Right. Look like how can anybody say this is a bad or evil cause? I I don't know.
Paul
The big dilemma. Is that they have no support. Yep, they can't afford it. Yeah, they want a better life for their child. And just because they get their hand held through the process. At some point, that handheld mentoring closes you either you try to help them fish. Yep, but I imagine. And you tell me if I'm. Wrong but. I would imagine a lot of these young women. Don't know kindness. Yes. Yes. They come from an environment of abuse. Where they had, they have felt like they have no value. Yeah. And how often?
Matt
All the time I travel all around with, say, the storks to different pregnancy centers and not just with, say, the storks. I do this with different independent centers all the time where I'm supporting them, speaking at events, singing, bringing bone with me. We're singing together and we hear that story constantly. The other story we hear are people who really had their lives together, but it was shame and wanting to hide. The the decision, you know, and so that's shame, that kind of caused that that, that isolation and that choice whereas you know so it's like for the person who just feels no support, they need support for the one who does have the support but feel shame they need to understand like hey you can come into the light without judgment. And we're here. To walk with you, you know, as you make the choice. They want to make. So I think, yeah, the other thing I love is they step out-of-the-box. They offer a lot of different programs, these centers to help elevate their care. And one of those things that that we did last year was they actually invited me to develop a program for young fathers. So-called dare to be a dad. We did a video series. I wrote a book so and they made it free to whoever wants that. They don't charge for it. So dare to be a dad is available the curriculum and the video series is not only available on savethestorks.com but the. Bible app actually has a. New version, devotional as well. Based around it, refer young fathers.
Paul
Do you have links all the links on? Your website.
Matt
I don't know about on my website, but you can find it very. Easily save the stores. OK, OK, yeah. I can get you the links.
Paul
But on your website is. All your music.
Matt
Yeah. Yeah, at matthammett.com you can get get links. Actually I would just say go to, I would love to just went to Instagram. Father, Instagram is my link tree and my bio.
Paul
OK.
Matt
Has links to all us.
Paul
OK. Yeah. And you're on.
Matt
Twitter Yep, I am on Twitter. I don't use it as. Much anymore. I left Twitter. I. I I haven't been on Twitter more than twice, probably in six months.
Paul
I was complimenting Twitter. X yeah. And I said it would, but X it I started to get so much negative stuff. Yep. So I just.
Matt
That's why I left.
Paul
I said I miss Twitter. Do you know what they sent me? They said your account has been marked for bullying. Wow, so. This is all another podcast, but I got I was accused of bullying.
Matt
Ohh gosh on Twitter. Ohh you bullied acts.
Paul
Because I. But all their paperwork other legal, still shows their Twitter. Said I miss. OK, so yeah, I I left, but I don't I.
Matt
I've gone back on to post. I haven't engaged because it's it's been at least six months now and that's because. My feed filled up with total polarizing.
Paul
Because you're positive you're trying a positive message, yeah. I think the more controversy there is on. Twitter and and and and here's the thing, this is what's nuts. Did you know that it's become the number one site to access ****?
Matt
Oh gosh. Wow. I didn't know.
Paul
That so I don't know what back end deals are going on there, but but it's become the number one place. And we need our buddy, Joshua Brown, who was also on the podcast. Former **** star who's a big advocate of. Assisting people that want to become Christians in that industry and. Conquering sex addiction and all these things. But he's like they've been also creating legislation. Before you go on certain websites, you have to show your driver's license is all into the. Ball game like. Yeah, there's it's a secret door and I keep seeing this stuff on, like CNN. And sorry if you don't like CNN, but I also see it on Fox. And other. But but it's it's kind of sad. And so I left.
Matt
Out of principle, Yep. I've abandoned the news cycle partly. I used to really involved. I used to read the news every day and a lot of that was Twitter. I would bounce back and forth between Fox and CNN, partly just to, like see who was saying what. And I think when I started seeing how. Everything was spun. Yeah, on both sides. Again, man. Like, I'm not saying it's evil or bad. I don't know. I don't know who's telling the truth sometimes, but that was the problem. I never knew who was telling me the truth, so I just could sniff the the BS, you know? Sorry, but, like, and I could. I could. I could. I could sniff. I could sniff it. And I was.
Paul
No, no, no. Yeah. Well, snakes. Yeah.
Matt
Like man, you know what? I don't think this is for me anymore because I don't know who's telling the truth. And so when I need my news, I'll find some.
Paul
Wasn't it? Isn't that sad, though? Yeah, today in a world where we have kids, they know right off the bat.
Matt
Reasonable sources to go to.
Paul
I yeah, that's what they say. That's what they don't say. That's what they this.
Announcer
And that Yep.
Paul
And then they hear stuff in high school and that's. Kind of where they. Yeah. So so to sum up this podcast, we. About the complexities. We talked about the complexities of the music industry a little bit of Matt's journey in the band since this real choosing to be a active. Have full time, Father. And that's not to to diss any of our friends that are on tour, providing for their families that involve their families in almost everything. But that was the path that you chose. You've got music. He's. He's an artist, he's got and I love your album treetop. Thanks. Appreciate that. I I love. I love everything. Matt does. I listen to his music all the time. And and you know it's good to learn about. More about Taylor Swift and.
Matt
Because people don't hear enough about her already.
Paul
That's right. That's right. It's not you. It's me. It's me. I'm the problem. It's me, you know. Do you ever do this with the man I learned from staying?
Matt
And give them a little more.
Paul
That when. Kids are listening to certain types of music. Print up the lyrics.
Matt
That's interesting.
Paul
Print the lyrics up and then gather as a family and read the lyrics.
Matt
Ohh dude I. And then ask.
Paul
Is this good for our culture? Or is this? Not good for our culture yet. You could take it to. A whole nother level as. A Christian is this good for gospel?
Matt
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Man, I've had this idea. I actually did this with my family. Just be funny at times. I would take lyrics to popular songs and just, like, speak them like as if I was reading, reading speech or poetry and like, and a very serious.
Paul
Can you imagine?
Matt
It's a very serious tone, you know, and like how ridiculous music lyrics can sound. Yeah, set outside the music. If I had time on my hands, I always wanted to start an account where I put on my glasses by the fire and just. Read, you know, like ridiculous, musically exciting play songs. Everybody knows. But but thinks they're amazing because they they the lyric would just sound totally ridiculous outside of the music. But I have time for that. So if someone out there wants to do that, I'll watch it. I'll subscribe. And I'll watch.
Paul
It and crack up. They did that they used. To do that on Conan O'Brien they were. Did they with Morgan Freeman?
Matt
Ohh yeah, Morgan Freeman.
Paul
Yeah, and Freeman would brief, like DMX or.
Matt
That's right, 2 bucks. My gosh.
Paul
For some of these other artists. And they would just read it in that.
Matt
That's probably where the idea got planned. Back in the day, and I don't say remember that.
Paul
So that's what Sting does. And Sting, who's a rock and roller. An incredible, incredible husband been married to. Pretty for a very long time, but yeah, that's what he did to ask his own kids. Well, so. Anyways, this has. This has been awesome Matt, and go to matthammett.com. It's in the show notes. I'll put a link. To the new song he's got and two saved by the storks. I'm not putting a link. For Taylor Swift's website, because you already. Know she's everywhere. But maybe they're Travis.
Matt
Yeah, yeah, you should.
Paul
Wait, do you think they're like?
Matt
You should put a link to the jersey. You could probably sell a few more.
Paul
Yeah, because now he says he's going to be in movies. Oh my gosh. So he might be in the. Next movie that says. Get to the chapter, get to the chapter. Up against. Anyways, I'm going on and on. Alright guys, thanks for listening to the podcast go. Back and listen to. Podcast we talked about his his book lead me, one of the most popular songs the band was nominated for a Grammy. Was that the song? Season one with Manny Emmett.
Matt
Yeah. Yeah. That cycle. Yeah. Thanks for that. Yeah. Perfect. Yep.
Paul
Thanks everybody. Talk to you. Next week. All right. Thanks.
Announcer
Thanks, Paul. Greatly appreciates your feedback. Please subscribe to the Paul Cardall podcast wherever you listen, please show your support by leaving a review of the Paul Cardell podcast wherever you listen. For more information, visit www.paulcardall.com.
Song
Because you show me. Broken anymore? I used to be your friend until I was insecure. Cut up in, but you show me how to. Bruce and bro. Show me how to heal and why. Don't feel you. Show me how to hear you.