What's it like to be the only Latter-Day Saint (Mormon) in his classroom at a southern Divinity School? Mark Mabry is a practicing Latter-Day Saint, formerly known as The Mormons, who moved to the bible belt where he entered The Vanderbilt Divinity School in Nashville, Tennessee. Paul and Mark discuss his faith and his Vanderbilt classroom made up of a diversity of students from various Christian denominations. Students earn a Master of Theological Studies while others are in the Masters of Divinity Program. Most will go on to become Pastors or Chaplains. Because some Christian churches don't believe Latter-Days Saints are Christian, Mark and Paul explore LDS theology and Mark's Christianity. They also talk briefly about Mark's work as an American photographer, cinematographer, and activist, best known for his photographic depictions of Jesus. In 2008 and 2009 Mark published two Reflections of Christ photo books recreating scenes from the life of Jesus.
What's it like to be the only Latter-Day Saint (Mormon) in a Southern Divinity School? Mark Mabry is a practicing Latter-Day Saint, formerly known as The Mormons, who moved to the bible belt where he entered The Vanderbilt Divinity School in Nashville, Tennessee. Paul and Mark discuss his faith and his Vanderbilt classroom made up of a diversity of students from various Christian denominations. Students earn a Master of Theological Studies while others are in the Masters of Divinity Program. Most will go on to become Pastors or Chaplains. Because some Christian churches don't believe Latter-Days Saints are Christian, Mark and Paul explore LDS theology and Mark's Christianity. They also talk briefly about Mark's work as an American photographer, cinematographer, and activist, best known for his photographic depictions of Jesus. In 2008 and 2009 Mark published two Reflections of Christ photo books recreating scenes from the life of Jesus.
View Mark's Reflection of Christ series
https://reflectionsofchrist.org/
Learn about Vanderbilt's Theological Studies Degrees
https://www.vanderbilt.edu/gdr/degrees/theology.php
Learn more about Latter-Day Saints
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/comeuntochrist
ABOUT THE HOST PAUL CARDALL
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AMAZON - Ask Alexa to play Peaceful Piano by Paul Cardall
Paul Cardall is an artist who has given a new meaning to the phrase, a change of heart and how he used this radical change to take his music to an unexpected place. Despite being born with a potentially life-threatening heart defect Paul Cardall has become a world recognized pianist. He is even endorsed by Steinway & Sons as one of the finest pianist of our time.
A Dove award winner for his Christmas album, Paul’s recordings have debuted on 11 No. 1 Billboard charts along with 46 other chart debuts. His music has 25 million monthly listeners with more than 3 billion lifetime streams and is often categorized as Classical, Christian, and Holiday. Although most of albums are instrumental, Paul has songs that feature Grammy winning gospel legend CeCe Winans, Matt Hammitt (Sanctus Real), Kristin Chenoweth, Country duo Thompson Square, David Archuleta, Tyler Glenn (Neon Trees), Audrey Assad, Steven Sharp Nelson (The Piano Guys), and more.
Paul has performed for audiences worldwide including the White House. Forbes, American Songwriter, Jesus Calling, Lifestyles Television, Mix Magazine, and countless other media outlets have share his remarkable journey of receiving a life changing heart transplant and using music as a tool to help God heal spiritual, mental, and emotional hearts.
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Transcript
Narrator
Forbes magazine calls him one of the most listened to recording artists of our time, with more than 3 billion streams and 11 #1 albums on top Billboard charts. This is all hard with Paul Cardall.
Singer
Because you show me how to. Broken any?
Host: Paul Cardall
Welcome. I'm Paul cardall. I just came from the recording studio where I was with an orchestra. These are probably some of the best players in Nashville. These are classically trained string players who have degrees. Very blessed to have worked with them. We're working on my music. I have new music coming this year, and when you surround yourself with people who are much more talented than yourself. You will sound good. I've had a lot of different people represent different faiths on the podcast, and of course this is not all religion conversations. If you're here for the first time, we interview a lot of different musicians and authors, various topics, but, but I am interested in history and music. Again, religion. And we've had, like Jeremy Duncan, a pastor from Canada, I wanted some clarification on, if there is mistranslation in the Bible about homosexuality, we had a great episode on that. I had father Bill Watson. Who is a? Priest in the Catholic Church a a big leader in the church. I wanted to clarify. Doctrines about celibacy and Mary, that was a great episode. I had Pastor TJ Tim. Who is a non denominational pastor that went to Kings College? I wanted to talk about where he believes he got his authority from. These are just interesting topics for so many people who want clarifications and we need to expand our minds in order to understand and respect other people's beliefs. And where they're coming from and that's what we're doing today. We're going to talk about Mormonism with Mark Mayberry. Mark is a very well known American photographer who has turned his photography into art and. He loves creating art that depicts scenes from the life of Jesus Christ and a lot of those scenes come from the Book of Mormon. Of course, we all know about the musical, but he has created images from that. That idea, that book that is considered scripture to people that are part of Mormonism and will clarify, is it a church? Are they churches? Is there's just so much confusion about it, so I'm glad Mark's going to be here to talk with us about this and. The reason I'm asking him is because.
Guest: Mark Mabry
We both.
Host: Paul Cardall
Moved to the South and he decided even though he's very successful doing well to go to divinity school at Vanderbilt now it's. Latter Day Saints, which is the the main phrase. For people that are part of the Mormon culture, they don't normally go. Off and go to divinity school. So we're going to talk. To mark about. That and get some clarification on a lot of these ideas today on my podcast. So without further ado, let's get into this conversation.
Narrator
This is all hard with Paul Cardall.
Guest: Mark Mabry
So what are you up to, man, you. Done traveling for a second.
Host: Paul Cardall
For a second, I'm heading back out. On Friday, where are? You going Vegas and then to the Grammys?
Guest: Mark Mabry
Oh cool.
Host: Paul Cardall
I'm gonna hit record here. But most people. That's cool for your art. Tell us a little bit about reflections of Christ.
Guest: Mark Mabry
OK, reflections of Christ was was honestly just a passion project for me. It's a photographic depiction of moments in life of. Next, I ended up doing doing a a series of life of Christ that went viral 2008 viral, whatever that is, it was it was e-mail chains and. Was YouTube? Well, you did like beginning of Facebook? But mostly like. E-mail chains and blogs, right? And then we had a couple of exhibits that traveled all the way around the United States, just all over the place and in my life really changed at that point. I went from being a starter to, I guess. Artist, where I was making things for the love of art. And instead of by Commission and. And that that changed me a lot. That really focused and. I've always been somebody more or less focused on Christ. But when when you have something go like viral viral and especially in my hometown. It originated, and every time I'm trying to eat a burrito, somebody comes up and, like, tells me about their experience. Then you've gone through this too, with music and how it affected their life and their crying and your burrito's getting cold. And I never had, I guess, a a deep academic understanding. Of Jesus. But I I read the stories and probably a little more carefully with regards to how they may have looked, even though historical accuracy is completely out the window when we depict guys because you know. I'm no artist, just depicting guys in historically accurate manner and I don't and I think it's like the third or fourth most important. Thing anyway, to be historically accurate. That kind of was has wowed me for. You know, 1213 years until I finally had some free time. And I'm like, you know, I'm going to dig a little deeper. And that's when I went to Vanderbilt. But but in the meantime became a pretty voracious reader, I guess, and learned to discuss Jesus myth. People of all stripes, Christian and non Christian, it's been. Really cool. It's it's been cool. A cool way to remember Jesus in my daily life is the fact that I have to get up in the morning and make sure that my personal brand doesn't ruin. This idea of Jesus that I've presented.
Host: Paul Cardall
And those that are watching on YouTube because you can watch on YouTube if you don't know about this.
Guest: Mark Mabry
Oh, so we are YouTube. Get back. My face looks huge, alright?
Host: Paul Cardall
Now a lot of your earlier work of taking images of Jesus were. Based on the Book of Mormon and this is what I want to talk about because. This has been a topic of conversation for a lot of people all over the world. What is Mormonism? What is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? What is LDS? What is Latter day St. There seems to be these different idols. For the church and. I guess, like Catholicism. You have so many different break offs. And likewise with Mormonism. You have so many different break offs. So you decided when you move, you know into the Bible belt as a. Faithful practicing latter day St. That believes in Mormonism. That you are going to go. To Vanderbilt and get a what is this? A theological degree? Is this like a divinity program?
Guest: Mark Mabry
Yeah, it's a nice place.
Host: Paul Cardall
Technically, you could be ordained.
Guest: Mark Mabry
I could. I could everybody. That I was going to. School with was in the ordination process for either. Presbyterian Ministry or Baptist ministry? Or, you know, the Methodist? So yeah, those are my classmates. The the one distinction. I'd like to make. Is is you said believer in Mormonism and and when I use Mormon because I saw that as part of my vernacular, right the. Church the church is trying to like reassert the proper name of the church, the church Jesus Guy said Latter Day Saints. And get away from the Mormon, which was a pejorative term, but I think where I adopt Mormon. When we refer to the culture. Of a lot of the members. In the church, Jesus Christ. By racists. So do I believe in Mormonism? Do I believe? In the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Saints. Yeah, I have faith in it. I believe it right? But I but I. Have a big there's a big distinction. Do I believe in, you know, every? Strange tradition that has been passed down now. And I think if you get any church. Just been around for a couple of 100 years and and if they have like the nickname of the wheel. Name and the same like cultural dichotomy. You'd probably most members of whatever church it is, would be like. No, you know, I'm not really a. Baptist if that was the but I believe in the tenets of the Baptist religion. If that makes sense because. I think there's cultural baggage with with every church. And that was one of. The big awakenings for me at the very school. Was that everybody was uncomfortable in their skin. They're uncomfortable being tagged like you're a Mormon. You're this. Well, no, I'm a believer in Christ. And that went for. Everybody there for the most part, Vanderbilt's interesting. Vanderbilt's just nuts. Just get it out there. It's not a conservative, like Bible Belt School that you'd think being in Nashville anyway. Thank you. Get back in after my hiatus.
Host: Paul Cardall
I want to read something. Because I want to be specific in this question because I think.
Guest: Mark Mabry
I got.
Host: Paul Cardall
You you know the answer in 325AD. All of the Christian leaders gathered because Constantine, the Roman Emperor Emperor, asked them. All to gather. From to and basically they debated Scripture and the identity of God they created. A defining statement or articles of faith known as the Nicean Creed. Some people pronounce that differently, but the Nicene Creed and since then that Creed has helped shape modern Christian. And the IT is accepted by all three branches of Krishnam Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestantism. And when I tell my friends that are non denominational or evangelical or Baptist, that they're all Protestant they they get confused by that. But it all falls under the schism of Catholicism.
Guest: Mark Mabry
It's not that quick, yeah.
Host: Paul Cardall
Thank you. Yeah, you're out of the branch, so it's no secret that Latter Day Saints. Do not accept the creed or any other creeds. Prior to the founder, Joseph Smith writing. Those thirteen articles of faith which Latter Day St. leaders would later canonize as Scripture in 1880. So with that in mind. Give us a couple of things that differentiate. The theology or the doctrine? Of of Mormonism or what the leaders of the LDS Church are teaching versus what thousands of Christian denominations who accept the Nicene Creed. Believe because that's a big thing, not like that.
Guest: Mark Mabry
Oh, totally, yeah.
Host: Paul Cardall
The creed. So there's several churches that don't, but it's like maybe 1% of every. Denomination that believes they're Christian and the number one thing. You here in the South or throughout the world is they're not Christian because they're not biblical Christians. With the latter day St. I guess be defined as a Christian Church if they don't believe in the Nicene Creed, Jesus.
Guest: Mark Mabry
Yeah, I know there's a million ways to answer. This question right, but I think. If you ask most people who have ever had an LDS neighbor or associate. Is the Mormon living? Next door to you, Christian. They would say. What and? To me. I could ask. 50 Christians I could walk outside and let's my whole neighborhood. And knock door to door and. Say, hey, can you tell me about? The Nicene Creed, maybe like the is that a band? I think it's. The the discussion of creedal Christianity, the discussion of creeds should be left to. That are confined to classrooms. You know, like, I don't think it matters in the real world today. Right. I will tell you that you mentioned the Godhead being the big issue, right, the the. Latter Day, St. theology is that God the father of Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost function as one. Perfect unit, but that they are distinct spirits. Like they're distinct people and. And I actually I've thought. A lot about this because I. Said what is the? Like what are the practical implications of a differing? A differing view of the. Godhead how does? That show up in the real world. Why does it matter? I've held hands. I've raised hands, I've hugged, I've blessed I've whatever with Christians that are picturing a completely different God than me. And the prayers are still working. With Jews and with Muslims that are picturing their belief and the prayers worked right. And so ultimately, I don't think it's. An important question. But but it's important to some people. Here's where I like to and listen, I'm going to say something that can be taken out of context and can get me canceled. Here it goes. When my kids. When my kids present me with an issue like this an issue. Of faith, right? I say listen, it comes down to us. Fighting about our imaginary friends. You sound like 2 kids on the. Schoolyard fighting about our imaginary friends. I have not seen God. I have no proof. That God the father and Jesus Christ and his and the Holy Spirit with me to separate beings. I'm assuming that someone on the other. Side of. The table has not. Proof to the contrary. We're arguing about imaginary friends, and I know that's completely offensive. To biblical scholars or whatever else, but there's this. There's this point at which. You're in the dark. And you have to just have faith. And and I absolutely and I have faith in in what I believe. Am I to the point where I'm like hitting the pulpit and saying I know it's this way and you're going to be damned? No, not at all. I think you and I. You and I were together with with my uncle, and we went to go here. I'm she's Jewish. She knows more about the New Testament than any person I have ever met, professor or otherwise.
Host: Paul Cardall
And and to see the New Testament through the Jewish lens. This is an important. Principle that I picked up on you cannot look. At life. Only through the lens that you were nurtured. You have to find a way to pick up another lens that you've never worn. To see things in that light, it's like with history. You know rough stone rolling the controversial. Novel or biography by Columbia professor Cushman.
Speaker
I don't know.
Host: Paul Cardall
But it was controversial at a time before a lot of major changes happened in the LDS Church.
Guest: Mark Mabry
It created a lot of.
Host: Paul Cardall
I call it chattacon 2 for Mormons.
Guest: Mark Mabry
It it it really looked like a transparency thing.
Host: Paul Cardall
And that was basically focus on Jesus.
Guest: Mark Mabry
Right.
Host: Paul Cardall
Don't call us Mormons change the a lot of the way that things are communicated. Everything is Christ centered. And I think it always was, but more specific. The mentality that you are exhibiting. I think we're finding more and more latter day. Saints who are like you. Then there goes the church. Well, you know the and what they used to always say, if, if, if if they didn't feel good about it, the missionaries would have destroyed. It a long time ago so. But yeah, it's it seems to stay interesting. Dynamics and and of course you can get into. Well, it's according to how people live by their fruits. You shall know them. But the founder of the Faith and the whole foundation. And leaders of the church have said that everything rests on. The idea that Joseph Smith, the founder, either saw God. Jesus and the father as separate beings. Or he didn't. So you're saying you've never seen God, which? Is a very. Honest answer. I've never seen God. But you know, we both have never seen God. But we felt. You felt, but you can't always go on feeling because our feelings may be. But there's this notion that he saw it. So the entire foundation of authority rests on.
Guest: Mark Mabry
Well, I believe I believe that he did, but I and I and I I wondered a little bit. I wanted to make one point about the Godhead, like to to close that and it's this the practical application. When you think of. Why does it matter? Right. And to me it it shows up in this if you were to ask again, who knew very little about the church or discuss the letter saying, hey, do you know any more months? Tell us about them. Well, they're really into their family. I think that would be a fair assumption that the top one or two things that you know about and the Members through these guys. Is that they are a family. People right and and if nothing else, and I and I've never heard a talk about this, I've never heard it preach this, but it makes sense we're talking about. A father in heaven. Who sent his son his actual son? Right, that's more visibly different spirit, different person. It's not God Incarnate, but that they are one in thought, one in purpose and and that's how that's how we. And so if you look at, if you look at Northeast that way, another unique wrinkle in LDS theology that gets under spoken about. So we've been talking about assist Joseph Smith is we believe that if there is a Heavenly Father he did not achieve who he is without having a heavenly mother. And so when LDS people talk about? A God head. There's this other teaching that. A man will never achieve that level. And neither will a woman. Without their without their partner. Without their male or female partner. And in that, we have the Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, that they are the key to each others's salvation, and each others like progression, Christ being the key to salvation, but each other being the key to progression, right, I think. You talk about. LDS people and families, you talk about how we talk about marriage and how we do marriage. Talk in an LDS wedding ceremony. Nobody gives away the bride. And I noticed this just the. Other day. I'm sitting in a a ceremony. And the. The man, the sealer, the person.
Host: Paul Cardall
During the marriage giving.
Guest: Mark Mabry
Yeah, doing the mayor says. You know. Susie, here you are and you give yourself to him. And the same thing to the guy you give yourself. And it's it's agency. I'm coming together. It's not. You want to talk patriarchal? Go to every single wedding ceremony. Anywhere right now. Where the man is giving away his daughter.
Host: Paul Cardall
You know, that's so true.
Guest: Mark Mabry
That's big.
Host: Paul Cardall
That is so true because. In all the ceremonies I was ever in. Yeah, the woman is given the choice first. Is this what you want? Yeah, I didn't. I never realized that that's a beautiful. Beautiful theology.
Guest: Mark Mabry
And then thank you. It and then the the idea of a ceiling. This idea that we are. Going to Weld you together so tightly. That that is the intent is for you to be one for eternity. Just like our Heavenly Father and our heavenly mother. And just like they have all of these kids. That they would. Do anything to get back. And and the the the we need a hero. Our our older brother, Jesus Christ, to come down. Base take on all. Evil and whatever theory of the tone that. You want to apply right there. But to lead us back? To the presence of our heavenly parents, I think. It it even if we're wrong about the Godhead. I think that that understanding of the Godhead has blessed. Countless lives. And listen. LDS people are just as bad at living our theology as non LDS people. But when done right. There's nothing like it. And I apologize. I get it's really close to the closeness here, but I have so much hope. I have so much hope for humanity because of marriage. And children that. And that is the like Genesis of tears, that's. You know, and to me, that is what the theology. Is we screw up a lot of things. As members of the church, but I think that's something that we're doing, right?
Host: Paul Cardall
For Catholics, what I've learned being married to a. Catholic is that you know, Mormons have this concept of a heavenly mother. Catholics in a way. Do as well with Mary. And I was just at Fatima. In Portugal and Fatima's, the third most visited Catholic site, this is where 3 little children over 5 different months were visited by Mary. And kids, I mean, how do you argue with the kids? These kids were they were accused of being liars their whole life. But Mary told them three things that was going to happen. That came true about the World War and all these things. But when you go to mass or Catholic Church, they do have Mary. Who is the mother of Jesus or the mother of church? So she's that Heavenly Mother figure. And with Jesus you have the father. So you do have male and female represented. And even in Jesus, you have the masculine and the feminine, but in Mormonism you have heavenly parents. In Catholicism, you have a mother through Mary. But you talk about eternal families and the. When people are married, they say till death do you part. But in Mormon marriages, Latter Day St. marriages, it's eternal. It's forever. You continue on that relationship in the marriage. Covenant beyond the grave. Yeah, I think the key distinction. Is that most Christians, and I'm going to generalize because I think. It is true. The argument is Jesus is enough, you don't need. Marriage is just for you here, so you can learn how to not be selfish. And and I thought about that a lot, mark like. This idea that I wouldn't be with Tina in the next life and you know one of the Elias apostles. Holland says. I can't imagine heaven without my wife. I can't imagine not my wife, but being a married couple bound like, you know, we're brothers and sisters. We're friends. Do we need that marriage covenant? And then I I realized to take that. Argument further that we don't need to be married Muslims. And I have many Muslim listeners and. I love you guys. And I respect you guys, but most of them. They believe in Jesus, but they don't believe God. Needed to suffer that his power is enough. So there is no need for the atonement, and Christians are saying you don't need to be married in the next life because Jesus love isn't is enough and Latter Day Saints are saying neither is the man without the woman or the woman without the man in Christ and the fullness. Of that union continues. And I love that idea. It's happily ever after.
Guest: Mark Mabry
It is happening. You know it it really. I it's interesting, you mentioned you mentioned Islam. I was I was just. At dinner with. A bunch of new Afghan refugees. I the way they did family. I was like, can I bring you into? Sunday school. Like they were so. Tender and so sweet with each other. It was is incredible and I know again on the far. The the fringes of Islam. Is patriarchy to a degree that's just bicis and horrible, right? But on the fringes of Christianity, there's that too. You know, I think there's something that draws us together as family and. And to me that that's how. And that strengthens my it strengthens my.
Speaker
Faith that I.
Guest: Mark Mabry
That I have in the nature of the Godhead, but again, we go back to your being when somebody, somebody stood up in class after she gives this incredible thing about Jesus.
Host: Paul Cardall
Hey, Jay.
Guest: Mark Mabry
And goes and it was. What was the name of the? Church we had just. Was there ever was?
Host: Paul Cardall
What it was, it was the Church of Christ, founded by Alexander Campbell, who was the one responsible for nicknaming Joseph Smith and his followers, the Mormons.
Guest: Mark Mabry
Thanks Alex. Anyway, I so this guy stands up and kind of antagonistically after. I mean, she's giving this thing and I'm sitting there going goosebumps. I feel like the Holy Spirit, and I knew you probably. Were too and my. Uncle was were. Like this is incredible. And he goes how can you know this much about Jesus? And basically now you're going to go to hell because you don't. Believe it right? And she goes, she goes, you know what? I've spent years of my life that Jesus I. I stopped short of worshiping him as a Jew. But I love Jesus, and if everything I've learned about Jesus is right. If it turns out in the afterlife that I'm a little bit wrong. That Jesus I know isn't gonna send me to hell. And that's another unique thing about I think LDS that that even LDS people don't realize. When you read the Book of Mormon, it is the most universalist book on Earth. There is like a universal stripe to the Book of Mormon where you're like. Why are we so uptight about being right? And and the whole structure of what we. Do in the temples. How we baptize for the dead. We marry for the dead. We do all this stuff for the dead we do. We do work for the dead. We, the family's such a big deal. We believe that progression is an eternal endeavor. And I would just give it our best shot here on Earth. You know, there's trauma. There's things I was I was having a discussion with a good friend who was very, I won't name his denomination, doesn't matter. But he was like. I give him the example. We're talking about temples. I give him the example of a little girl raised in Communist China who knew nothing about Jesus. I said. So you're telling me? She's going to hell. He goes as bad as it sounds, yes. I said you're kidding me. But I said, well, I'll. Respect your faith and I'll respectively disagree with it. He goes. If she wanted to know Jesus bad enough she would find. A way. Oh, I'm sorry. Having been. In trafficking situations and persecution situations, there are some people who are never going to. Wrap their minds psychologically. Around faith in this life and. I don't blame them. And so the thing that I love. About this component to LDS theology of redemption of the dead. Is that? As much as those things break my heart and I fight against them. With all that I have. I'm talking about the the injustices of the world. That Joseph Smith had the foresight in 1830. To be like, no. No, no. It's going to be hard. And and yes, the mandate is baptism. But not everybody can get baptized. It's just not not working right. And so we're going to do it for the day. Like deck. So yeah, Mormons are weird. We got a lot of weird stuff, but if I could cherry pick a lot. Of the things that. We believe and just keep them in. My life like that. I think I would. You know.
Host: Paul Cardall
Yeah, I know. People have a lot of thoughts so. Please comment, I know. This is going to be a feat of, he said. She said Bible.
Guest: Mark Mabry
Comments off.
Host: Paul Cardall
Cedric, no, it's kind of. Fun it's kind of fun to do, but so let me ask you. As a practicing. Latter day St. When you come across people like me. Who were practicing Latter Day Saints pretty much. Their entire life. And then left. People leave for many reasons. Rarely do Latter Saints leave because. They feel LED. Give the gospel by their fruits. He shall know them. It's hard to argue that anyone who's part of any denomination. Who is pursuing Jesus, who is living? To the best of their knowledge. And they know they're flawed. How do you respond to your friends and family like me? And what's your advice for?
Guest: Mark Mabry
How do I so how? Do I respond to people that leave?
Host: Paul Cardall
Yeah, I mean.
Guest: Mark Mabry
22 parks. First part, let me ask you the question in your personal experience. As one that has left the states that. I hold dear. How have I treated you?
Host: Paul Cardall
Oh, like. Like I never left.
Guest: Mark Mabry
Damn it. Believe so firmly. And with the redemptive power of Christ. That I'm not worried. And I say that I'm not worried for you. I'm not. Worried for me? I have a lot of things wrong, I know. I have a lot of things wrong. It's so much. Bigger than any of us, I think can comprehend. That for me to sit there. And be like you know. Paul's an idiot. I'll call you an idiot about a. Lot of things. But I'm not going to like judge. Somebody's faith. I'm not going to judge the dark spot and and it's hurt. I know as a when someone leaves your faith, it hurts because you're like, wait a minute, man. You're calling me stupid. I'm not on one level, I get frustrated. On a human level. On an intellectual level, like, come on, man. On a brother level on a spiritual level, I am like, Dang, what could I have? Done first of all. But maybe it wasn't about me. Maybe it is a path. I mean, I'm when I went to divinity school. I would watch little kids come from Christian homes. Bright eyed, bushy tailed. They all have. We're all working on Masters or multiple masters at this point. So they're 20 something and they've come from where nobody has ever questioned. Their faith before. These kids break by the end of the first semester, the first time they academically studied the Hebrew Bible. And you've got a professor who lost his faith long ago. And and these kids just snap.
Speaker
Snap snap. Snap. Snap.
Guest: Mark Mabry
And and I found myself in the position, being an older student I. Was 44. You know, and I I'm in a I'm in a little hiatus right now. Because I'm working. With a different group doing Christian persecution. Stuff but. I found myself. Sometimes even in class, raising my hand to being. Like dude like go. Discount the faith of your parents. Don't discount all those things that you fill your entire life and so that that's me in real life, right? And and I'm glad I think that was a super valid question. That that you just that you just asked and I and I'm happy that I could look you in the eyes knowing that we love each other and I hope. You know, my greatest fear is that one of my. Kids will leave the church. Right. I can't. I can't wrap my head around that. I can talk to Baptist parents. I could talk to Catholic parents, Jewish parents. And they all the same fear. Yeah, right. When my kids gonna leave the church. But what, like, do? So I've tried to instruct my kids. I said I want you to be. I said this to them. The other night. We joke around, we have the church. Has this come follow me program is what it's called and it's what this the outline. Scripture study for the year we're doing New Testament. This year. And it's. Said kids, this is our annual come. Follow me. We're really bad at doing. We talk about Jesus all the time in our house. But I'm really bad at sitting down and doing the program, so we did it on January 2nd and then never went back to the gym. But I said, kids, I want you to be. Flexible in your faith. Because things are going to happen that disappoint you. You're going to read things about church history and people that you revered. That that scare you? But I want you to be inflexible. In your pursuit of faith. I never want you to stop pursuing God, but I want you to like. Not break. Yeah, a friend a. Different friend taught me this just recently, he said. People come to me to talk about their faith concerns and before they bring up. Any actual thing I say? Let me ask you a question. Are you looking for a way in? Or are you looking for a way out? Because if you're looking for. A way in I can't stop you. You're here. These things are getting. If you're looking for a way out. Let me list you all the ways. Out that I have. That I just haven't acted on anyway. But Paul, I love you. Dude, you know I.
Speaker
Love you.
Host: Paul Cardall
You're a good friend. I I yeah, I admire you. Everything you're doing, the fact that you would further your education, try to understand people. Why they do what they do, why they believe what they do so that you can have greater love and respect for them and be able to communicate with them because of your passion. For Christ, in closing, for me personally, listeners and and Mark. The Jesus that I've come to know. I'm going to be 50. You know my first encounter. With him. Was as if 13 year old. In a hospital dying. All my brothers and sisters, and there were seven others came up in the family station wagon to say goodbye. And in that moment of suffering. I had never felt more loved. And everything I had was right there in that room with me, my parents, my family and Jesus. Who at the time? The father and the son and the holy. Spirit was right. There with me and I could suffer because in the suffering, as Jordan Peterson would say in that suffering, my life had meaning, and that was the whole purpose. Of life, which are very clear in the scriptures.
Speaker
The word.
Host: Paul Cardall
It's kind of hard to see that anybody is not qualified. To be welcomed into his Kingdom, and I tell this story and we'll end on this. And then your thoughts. You know, there's this. This is a story of Peter and Peter's at the gate and you've got Peter standing at the gate and there's a massive wall around heaven, OK and look. He has to check you off the list to see if you've been put. And in the Book of Life to see whether or not you qualify, and for Latter Day Saints, you pretty. Much have to show. Your temple recommend, but for everybody else, are you in the Book of life? So you go to the gate, you present it to Peter, and Peter lets you in. If your name is on the list. Well, if you're not on the list, he says, I'm sorry you didn't accept. Jesus, according to what? We created, we started. So you're going to have to just not come into the Kingdom. Peter and James panicked. Come to the come out of the door to Peter and Saint Peter. It is getting so overcrowded in there. I don't know what you're doing. You're letting way too many people in. Are you sure you're letting people in? That's that's on the list. You're letting people in that are not on the list, he goes. Listen, I keep a tight schedule. No one's getting in unless I let them in. And they're like, well, it's too crowded. It's going to break the walls. Are gonna break. He's like, well, James, John, could you please go around the wall of the Kingdom and find out if? There's a hole, a ladder. Go see what's going. On they leave, they come back 100 years later. Because it's a. Big wall they. Come back and they're like Peter. And they were laughing. Still, Peter, you're not going to believe it. You know, all those people that you rejected? I found Jesus. On the other side of the wall, throwing people up into the Kingdom.
Guest: Mark Mabry
I love that story.
Host: Paul Cardall
That's that's the God I know. And I know you have to go, but. What is your hope? From all that you're doing your art. And the masters degree. What is your heart that you can accomplish?
Guest: Mark Mabry
I want to. Be able to tell the story of Jesus better. Right. On a personal level. And maybe even a meta level, I want to know one better. And and I I believe in Christ. I believe in a savior. I'm I'm a guy that loves repenting. And changing. And I think there's a lot of people on Earth. That don't have that faith. They don't have. That hope in their heart and in their belly. And I want. I want to maybe do something and help ignite that hope and and in that I find. I find camaraderie. I think camaraderie with you. I find camaraderie with. Everybody who wants to tell this story about Jesus. And and I want I want to. I want to do that in the last. Confrontational manner than. Then the 90s brought us. You know what I'm saying? I think we're in a new era. I think we're almost in the post. The post I have to be right, Ella. Where we're Christians and in that and LDS Catholic, Protestant, or whatever are are finding each other on new terms and. And I do recognize that I write. I I write like I look pretty decent group. That I write to you and more. Than half aren't of the yes. And and when we talk about Jesus together, yeah, there's a lot of before and after that we disagree on the imaginary friend stuff. But when we're like right there. In those 33 years. No, we find a lot of commonality and and. We bless each other. 's life and. So I just hope to do more of that. I want to participate in.
Host: Paul Cardall
Well, you're a good man. Love you. Love your family. Love, love everything you're doing and. We'll put in the show notes, a link to your art, which thank you. It's it's really amazing the the art and. There's just a lot of light. If you want a really beautiful image of Christ that feels lifelike. It feels so real. Alright brother. See you later. We'll talk soon.
Guest: Mark Mabry
Bye bye.
Singer
Because you show me how to.
Narrator
#1 billboard pianist Paul Cardall.
Host: Paul Cardall
Do you believe in miracles and second chances over a decade ago? Was raised from the dead.
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Read Paul's story the broken miracle.
Host: Paul Cardall
By JD Neto, visit www.thebrokenmiracle.com